I just find it interesting that someone like you, who appears to have some knowledge, can take something like this so far. Well, I don’t find it unusual, but interesting.
Here’s a man, claiming to be enlightened, to have understanding and to have a grasp of reality, using science to back up his equation. Now I’m sorry, but as someone who also knows a few things, I know that science, a religion in and of itself, is NOT the worlds answer to all of our questions. In truth, the scientific method taught in our schools is NOT the true scientific method. You know that as well, don’t you?
You should also know that science is merely a tool meant to take observations and, after all is said and one, to comment on those observations. And what’s silly is, how can you be so absolutely certain that what you have not seen, that is what existed before you, really existed at all? Sure, you can take things that are here now and use that as your evidence, but where is the true science in that? You’re only observing what you see and know now, not what really was or wasn’t. There is absolutely no way science can prove or disprove anything about the origins of life, about where this solar system or universe came from, because we were simply not there. And this tool we call science is just a tool, created by human minds, molded and shaped to fit the confines of our understanding. Where science is good is when it is used to do what it is good at doing – observing and commenting. Where science fails is when it tries to enforce and justify a philosophy (whether of “intelligent design†or not).
To go further with my point, our modern understanding of science began with philosophy. It began as a thought and as a way of looking at life. So science, which was once a philosophy (even used by many Christian philosophers), still IS a philosophy, and philosophies change as societies change, as people change. Science will change, and in fact has MANY times since its methods were invented. Today the idea (yes philosophy) of no intelligent design will be pushed, tomorrow it will be disproved by the very thing that tried to substantiate it. It’s been this way for thousands and thousands of years, and you know this.
But through all of this, there is one thing that has NEVER changed (well, the principals have never changed anyway), and that is the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Heck, your science has found the very places and even artifacts pertaining to the life of the Christ. But put that aside, and simply think about how you put your faith in the religion of science, a constantly changing and disproving liquid, while there is something changeless and timeless that exists, which calls you by name – a rock that never moves or breaks. Though it breaks the heads of many who do not believe.
It’s all faith, sir, and you well know that there is no science or philosophy that can substantiate your claims to the origins of life – because we were NOT there to witness it. But we WERE there to witness Christ and his death. And we WERE there to witness his resurrection. It’s written in the history books – and not just the Bible. The crumbs of true enlightenment lead to the cross – they always have, and always will.
So push your science all you want to, but I hope and pray that you will come to a realization of the truth in your walk, and in your search for it. Because only the truth will set you free, and freedom is what you are searching for.
Roy D Carlson
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@Roy D Carlson
..OMFSM! you are so completly convinced that pastafarianism is a lie. I can see that talking to you people is like talking to more brick walls. but you know what? I don’t do this to convinced the learned and wise to believe in FSM I do this in hopes that one fool – one person out of a million who might be reading this would be willing to at least take on the challange of seeing for himself. Getting outside of his shell of piety and asking the question “what if?†If only one person came to FSM by what i wrote, then my mission has been accomplished – and i shall meet you one day in FSM heaven.
RAmen
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Upon reading deeper, I see see the initial post has already been well covered by the ever vigilant, eloquent and tireless gill and J. (amongst others)
RAmen
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Why are you people so close minded? Why can’t the possibility even exist in your mind? Why? Must everything be answered with science? Are you that dull? As the very faith I believe in states “God has made foolish the wisdom of the world…” and “the wisdom of the wise shall be made dull…” and as I say in my own words…When you stand for something that does not stand on its own, you stand for nothing. Use that against me if you wish, but I know the truth. And you’re arrogance and blindness is beginning to annoy me. You so easily and wholeheartedly give into a system of beliefs that are all based on what you can see, and you use it to deny what you cannot see. Don’t you see the foolishness in that? Don’t you? Don’t you?? If you could, then you would not despise me, and you would not despise God. But you are no more wise than the lies you so trust in and rely on to get you through the day. I was trying to be civil with you, but I think civility went out the window when you accuse me of being foolish for believing in what I don’t see, and when you accused yourselves of being demons. I never called you a demon, gill, those were your words and your conclusions. Some science-minded people you are, jumping to conclusions before you even weigh the evidence. You hypocrates. You say that your enlightened thinking is so in touch with reality, but you are so blinded by your wisdom that you wouldn’t recognize reality if it bit you in the butt and danced naked in front of you. And I thought being civil with you would make you at least respect what I have to say. NO, instead you mock me, but not me, you mock your creator.
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Well here’s what your creater says “have your wisdom and your great knowledge. Use it to try and make me disappear. But in the end, every knee will bow, and oh yes, every tongue will confess, including yours.” I have no more words to say to you, though I’m sure you’re happy. Double-minded people.
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@Roy D Carlson
Anger at not being able to convert someone to your own christian belief? What about all the other religions? Do you feel this same anger at not being able to convince them?
“Onward christian soldiers marching unto war” as usual !!! You also appear to have a fundmental misunderstanding of the differences between science and theology. How would you feel if I told you that I was bought up as a Hindu?
How insulting and intolerant of you to declare yours is the only true god.
“Why are you people so close minded?”
By the way, exactly what did you expect when you posted on this site. When I re-read your posts the term “narcism” springs to mind. Look up the correct meaning of the term in a dictionary.
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ps. “When you stand for something that does not stand on its own, you stand for nothing.”
The disease cures discovered through years of scientidic research seem to be coming along quite well. A great product of our “beliefs”. Let’s hope you never require one so as you won’t feel like a “hypocrates”.
It’s been a pleasure.
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Roy D Carlson
You sir, by your own hand, bring your belief system more disrepute than any of your adversaries could ever dream of.
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“Why, knowing that evolutionary theory is no theory at all?………………
………To completly or even partially accept the evolutionary theory REQUIRES that the person completly deny the possibility of something beyond the material. Personally I think that is very short sighted. Thus this is where I coin the term “bad science. …..”
Wonder why we have sucessfully used flies, worms and rats (mainly) for biomedical research into diseases and come up with a better and often a new understanding of these as well as successfull treatments (cures)? The reason these organisms are used (other than the fact we don’t get a lot of humans volnteering to be guinea pigs) is based on an understanding of evolutionary relationships between these different organisms and humans. (gene simularities)
Also I do not believe it was you who coined the term “bad science”.
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Bloody bigots!
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Roy, you can call us close minded, and we can serve that claim right back.
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The simple fact here is that we (well, the more pedantic among us) are either scientists or hold a skeptical viewpoint. Now what this means to us, is that we simply like a logical argument behind what we believe, and given the choice, we will tend toward something that we can either test, or at the least reason.
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To us, God is a dillemma.
How can we test for a god? There is no lab test that lets us do so.
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How can we explain it’s actions? Compassion? Sin? Hell, even Gnosticisms explanations (big fight, good V bad) are opposed by observable nature.
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The violence that marrs the world can not be justified as the action of any decent being.
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Which then begs the question of course, why are we supposed to respect something like that?
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You say we always resort to science. Of course. We like logic here.
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Science is merely a way of looking at the world logically. We can’t verify something, why should we believe it?
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Before you say the same thing about evolution as what I am saying about faith, I would like you to remember the existance of microevolution has been confirmed beyond doubt of all who have even the slightest understanding of the theory behind it.
While macroevolution is a little harder to picture, it does follow the exact same mechanism, merely over a longer time frame.
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What evidence we have does not disprove macroevolution.
We cannot prove it conclusively, put at least it is an explanation that follows a logical structure of the same form as a quantifiable mechanism.
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We have some small chance of explaining what we see through science. We don’t through god. For me, that iswhat it all comes down too.
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Roy D Carlson,
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Why do you belittle my faith? I have faith. I believe in the FSM. It takes more faith to follow a radical god than a mainstream, popular god. It’s easy to go with the flow. Try swimming against the current once in a while.
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I can accept the possibility that the Christian god may be real. I see no proof of it, but like all things, it has the ‘potential’ to be true. Why can you not see the same potential in the FSM?
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We are not the close minded ones. You are the one that cannot accept the possibility that we may be right and you may be wrong. No need to convert to FSM. All I ask is that you understand that Jehovah, Yahweh, Vishnu, FSM, and the Great Green Arkleseizure all have the potential to be real.
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OEJ, aspiring FSM Theologian
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Every time I try to get away from this site, I just get sucked back in. (Once embraced by His Noodly Appendage, there is no turning back.)
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I can see I’ll have to revisit this thread tonight and read all of the posts made in the last couple of days properly.
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Just one thing now, quickly. Roy, somewhere above you wrote:
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‘If only one person came to faith by what i wrote, then my mission has been accomplished’
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I’d just like to acknowledge that I respect this. Not your faith, I’m afraid, for although I sympathise with it, I reason it to be groundless and undeserving of respect. But I respect that you are, at least, faithful *to* your faith. We meet a lot of people who are Christians but who don’t seem to care whether we are Christians or not. This confuses me – surely a Christian believes I’m going to hell if I don’t believe in God? Any Christian familiar with the story of the prodigal son ‘knows’ that God values previously wayward people who return to the fold above virtually everything else.
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You, Roy, at least have sufficient conviction and courage to put your actions where your scripture is.
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Of course, that’s one of the things that really worries me, because I’m absolutely convinced that your scriptures are not something to base a deeply-held world view on. And that’s why I will almost certainly be back to discuss this later.
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I hope your faith (or, better still, your curiosity) won’t let you give up on us just yet…
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Ah, I’m late to the debate! The stupid thread vanished on me…
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“Why are you people so close minded? Why can’t the possibility even exist in your mind? Why?â€â€”Pot, meet kettle. Why oh why can’t the possibility of some OTHER religion—or NO religion—exist in your mind?
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“You so easily and wholeheartedly give into a system of beliefs that are all based on what you can see, and you use it to deny what you cannot see. Don’t you see the foolishness in that? Don’t you? Don’t you??â€â€”Way to overuse the question mark. Now then, don’t YOU see the foolishness in basing your beliefs on what you cannot even find evidence for, much less see? (Yah, I totally just insulted my own religion there, but what the hell! Unlike you, I can I admit I might be wrong.) BTW, the ‘don’t you? Don’t you?? Don’t you???????!?!?!@#$@%???????2145’ thing does not help your case, I’m afraid.
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“you would not despise God.†-Who here despises god?? Some of us don’t believe in him, but if you don’t believe in him then you can’t very well despise him, can you?
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“I never called you a demon, gill, those were your words and your conclusions. Some science-minded people you are, jumping to conclusions before you even weigh the evidence.â€â€”no, but you DID insinuate that my beliefs weren’t ‘true’ because they’re not yours by commenting that even demons can believe in god. (Once again, I say that being a demon would be way cooler then being a human.) Also, that was sarcasm. Also, stop being so darn serious and grow a sense of humor.
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“Well here’s what your creater says “have your wisdom and your great knowledge. Use it to try and make me disappear. But in the end, every knee will bow, and oh yes, every tongue will confess, including yours.â€â€–…..*gasp* YOU KNOW WHAT GOD SAYS?! Oh, wait, I’m sorry, you get upset when someone tries to crack a joke or two. Well, pal, if you can’t stand to hear the opinions of people who don’t agree with you, then why did you ever post at all? Maybe it was so you could rant and rave and hopefully, as you said, ‘change someone’s mind into agreeing with YOU because you so obviously have to be right?’
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A word of advice: don’t ever start whining about how stupid and foolish your opponents are being. Don’t call me names, refute my arguments; otherwise, you sound like an immature two year old who doesn’t HAVE any arguments but needs to argue anyway.
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Running away, are you? Why do they always feel the need to flee when the argument’s getting good, I wonder?
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Lastly: why does all of this bother you? So some people haven’t found god the way you want them to. How does that affect your life!? You seem so devastated to learn that there are others in this world who look at things differently then you do; do you really think your god—wait, that’s God with a capital G ‘cause he’s really gonna get so offended if some person doesn’t capitalize his name—wants you to go around trying to convert others into a faith that doesn’t work for them, just so he can brag about how many followers he has? I think god gave you your faith so that YOU personally could use it to be happy….not use it to make others miserable andor annoyed. But then again, what do I know, I’m just a scientifically-minded heathen who STILL won’t become Christian. (The nerve!)
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Pastafarianism is an equation?
Science does not use supernatural explanations and is allowed to be freely thought about. Religion uses supernatural explanations and thinking about it seems to have gotten a few people beheaded, tortured, burned at the stake, hand, drawn, and quartered (take your pick)
I don’t know what scientific method you were taught at school (probably a christian one), but I have looked all over for one different from the one taught at my school and haven’t found one, this leads me to believe that if there is another scientific method, it probably isn’t “the true scientific method”.
Ever hear of Last Thursdayism? I know that “what you have not seen, that is what existed before you, really existed at all” because it is the only logical and natural way for it to have happened (well, without getting into the possibilities that some dude took the time to make a fossil or something exactly the same way as many others and also made sure that the material he/she (though dude would tend to imply he) used to make said fossil had just the right isotopic structure too fool a bunch of scientists, but you don’t let us say that some dude just wrote some junk in the bible, so that wouldn’t be a very fair argument would it?).
“Where science is good is when it is used to do what it is good at doing” That’s totally going in my book of favourite quotes.
“So science, which was once a philosophy (even used by many Christian philosophers), still IS a philosophy” So this shirt that I just threw into Lake Superior, which was once dry, (and even worn by one Pastafarian philosopher) still IS dry?
“Today the idea (yes philosophy) of no intelligent design will be pushed, tomorrow it will be disproved” The thing about science is, it changes (yes evolves) with the evidence, not some nut job, and the changes cannot be predicted until the evidence is gathered.
You are right, the saving grace of this jesus fellow have never changed. They were as nonexistent in the past as they are now. I don’t really even know what you are trying to say with the rest of that paragraph, but I think you are trying to threaten the continued structural integrity of my cranial region.
“But we WERE there to witness Christ and his death.” I don’t remember that… must have been sleeping (or maybe a couple thousand years before I was born).
Did these crumb of which you speak lead to the cross before the first society began to use crosses as a form of punishment?
I do find it odd that a fundie is proposing freedom. Hey Roy! Do you think maybe I could have the freedom to have science taught in a science classroom?
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Wow, It’s been…2 years since I bothered to read any of this. My how time flies.
Let me make a few defining statements:
1) “Fundie” – Taken from the term “fundamental”, which was (is) a Christian group born out of the restoration movement, or at least is closely tied to the restoration movement. I DO NOT and WILL NOT EVER EVER EVER support, follow, or adhere to such a movement, or to any group that calls themselves “fundamental”, because they are deceived. They believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, yet they don’t believe in simple concepts like “real presence” or what we Lutherans call “means of grace.” No, sirs (and perhaps madams) I am not a “fundie”. For you or anyone to generalize in that way is simply…well it’s just wrong. But then, should I expect any less from people who hate God?
2) When you hear someone say “Christ died on the cross”, he is not trying to imply that Christ was the ONLY person to ever die on the a cross! That is just silly to even assume. Shoot, making such a dumb statement only shows your complete disregard for objectiveness, and leads me to wonder what science or system of discovery you DO cling to. I mean, really. Is science OBjective or SUBjective? If it is objective, than your insult only serves to bring you down. If science is subjective, than it isn’t really much of a method, is it? If history teaches that a man was put to death by lethal injection back in the 60’s while serving a death sentence at “The Rock,” does that mean that he was the ONLY one put to death this way? Both science AND history can show otherwise, right? Peter and other apostles were certainly put to death on crosses – that is common knowledge. So what’s your point?
3) “They were as nonexistent in the past as they are now.” Can we be at least somewhat reasonable here? I mean, can you put aside your presupposition that YOU are right and I am wrong for one moment? It is what you are asking me to do right? I mean, think about this…What gives YOU the arrogant right to criticize me because of my presuppositions while at the same time you live by at least as many presuppositions yourself? Did you ever stop to think that maybe YOUR presup’s are wrong? I mean, if you are going to have the balls to say to my face that I am wrong – at least have the balls to admit that YOU could be wrong. Because if you can’t do that, then you are no better than us “fundies”! And don’t throw all this “science has proved” crap at me. That just shows that you are stuck in your worldview and I have no respect for that. You are only a human being – limited in understanding and skewed by your past. Accept that basic truth and then I’ll have some respect.
It all boils down to ultimate authority. My ultimate authority is not science, and it is not myself. There is nothing you or anyone can do to change that. You would have to rewrite the past 33 years of my life before you could even begin to scratch the surface of my worldview – and that’s just the beginning. I also admit that I can’t change you. Your ultimate authority is yourself – it is why we “fundies” call the sinful human nature an “inward” nature – because it wants nothing more than to make itself a god and to serve itself. But what good is a god that can do nothing more than serve itself, right? Yet that IS your UA. And you can never understand me or those of us who are truly NOT fundamentalists – just Christians – though you can certainly judge us by our works. Even you possess the ability to separate the “sheep” from the “goats”, right? If there are “true” Christians, you can certainly understand how they are supposed to act, right? Quit basing your understanding of what Christianity is all about by looking at the freaks! We don’t all stand on street corners with big crosses condemning everything that doesn’t fit our mold, you know (using an example of a real person in Lincoln NE who, daily, stands on a street shouting out condemnation and hellfire…he don’t go to my church). There are reasons behind why we believe what we believe – and I can tell you as a seminarian, it is NOT because we are all stupid or weak minded.
If you want us to be reasonable with you, put some effort into being reasonable with us. Throwing out random insults and horribly distasteful comments just to prop yourselves up…I mean look what vultures do. They circle around their prey waiting for it to fall, while at the same time “hurling insults” at it trying to take its morale and its strength away. Are you any different? You should be. You know vultures are prey too. There are animals that will trick the vulture then pounce on him and destroy him.
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